in holland we call them schrabbers,in germany you call them kratzers..correct me if i'm wrong..

these two kratzers are a from a collection of more than 70 kratzers my girl and i found this year..all items came from two different spots..
the kratzers you see here are items from the early neolithicum..the red markings shows the retouche..
also other items like spitzen and axes (flint??) were found,but thats for another topic..

i hope you all like what you see 

Hi Kees 

Welcome to the Sucherforum and in the "department of Stonies" !! 

Those are very nice and classic neolithic scrapers.
You are wright about the names, it´s a "mess". 

In Denmark, were I come from, they are called "skraber" just like your dutch schrabber.

In German there are two names: "Kratzer" and "Schaber".

If I have understood it wright, the "Kratzer" is with the retouche on a small area on the end of an item, like on the end of a blade scraper or other types.
The "Schaber" is if the retouche is on a longer area, fore instance along the side of an item.

I wish you many good hours here at the Sucherforum.

Thanks for showing us those nice scrapers. 

agersoe 

thanks agersoe 
so this must be a schaber in deutsch..
in holland we also use two names for the reason you just told.. but my deutsch is very bad..the only thing i speak in germany is ein grose bier and snitzels..and schaber und kratzers ofcourse 
but i'm learning..and that's nice..

thanks again for your reaction 

hello

thats a very nice schrabber

lg felix

Hoi Kees,

Hartelijk welkom bij de "Steinis" op het Sucherforum!
Voor de meeste Leden van het Sucherforum is Duits het Moedertaal. Schrijv U Postings in Engels, dat is o.k, maar Antwoorden in duits of engels is toegestaan?

Zitat von: agersoe in 03. August 2008, 19:09:03

In German there are two names: "Kratzer" and "Schaber".

If I have understood it wright, the "Kratzer" is with the retouche on a small area on the end of an item, like on the end of a blade scraper or other types.
The "Schaber" is if the retouche is on a longer area, fore instance along the side of an item.

So it is! Let me try to explain another difference between the both. The angle at the cutting edge of a Schaber is sharper than the angle at a Kratzer's cutting edge. I think Schabers were primarily used as knifes and Kratzers were used to scrape.
Is it possible that the correct dutch term of the artifact you've presented is "Krabber"?
In any case, nice Scrapers! 

Herzliche Grüße
RP

Zitat von: rolfpeter in 04. August 2008, 10:58:30
Hoi Kees,

Hartelijk welkom bij de "Steinis" op het Sucherforum!
Voor de meeste Leden van het Sucherforum is Duits het Moedertaal. Schrijv U Postings in Engels, dat is o.k, maar Antwoorden in duits of engels is toegestaan?

Zitat von: agersoe in 03. August 2008, 19:09:03

In German there are two names: "Kratzer" and "Schaber".

If I have understood it wright, the "Kratzer" is with the retouche on a small area on the end of an item, like on the end of a blade scraper or other types.
The "Schaber" is if the retouche is on a longer area, fore instance along the side of an item.

So it is! Let me try to explain another difference between the both. The angle at the cutting edge of a Schaber is sharper than the angle at a Kratzer's cutting edge. I think Schabers were primarily used as knifes and Kratzers were used to scrape.Is it possible that the correct dutch term of the artifact you've presented is "Krabber"?
In any case, nice Scrapers! 

Herzliche Grüße
RP

That, however, would be new to me, RP ?? 

That, however, would be new to me, RP ?? 


[/quote]
It's a little difficult for me to explain it in english. I think the angle at the cutting edge of a Kratzer is normally about 60, up to 90 degrees. The angle of a Schaber is more acute, i think about 30 to 60 degrees. Here are the corresponding chapters of Joachim Hahns Artefaktmorphologie:

Schaber:











Kratzer:









HG
RP

now i'm lost 

yes,you can answer or react in german or in englisch..
but englisch is less difficult for me..

in holland we call the items i showed in the picture a schrabber..used for cleaning the skins and stuff like that..
what we call krabbers are mostly sharper..

so in deutsh (correct me if i'm wrong) is a what we call in holland a schrabber a kratzer,and what we call a krabber a schaber??

Lol, it's a never ending story, just like one of those cliffhangers in B-movies. 
I think a Kratzer is a krabber and a Schaber is a schrabber. Look at the picture, it's from "LBM Verhart en L P Louwe Kooijmans - Een Midden-Neolithische Nederzetting bij Gassel, Gemeente Beers [Noord Brabant].



HG
RP

aaargh!! 
what if i call my items just schrabber and let the rest argue what it is in deutsch?? hahaha
nice examples btw..

Zitat von: kees in 04. August 2008, 20:33:37
aaargh!! 
what if i call my items just schrabber and let the rest argue what it is in deutsch?? hahaha
nice examples btw..

Good idea !!